speak for themselves and just leave it at all. >> grover norquist -- you were talking about leverage and you believe republicans could get more leverage if they got this out of the way, called the white house's bluff, if you will and said, okay, fine, we'll give you this and have the larger debate. he believes the debt ceiling should be used as leverage. is that responsible governing? >> i think the speaker did, in our conference did the right thing last time. we were willing to raise the debt ceiling. that's a tough vote for republicans, but only if it was accompanied by reforms and long-term spending cuts. i actually think that's a good thing and should be institutionized. we should not continue on a course of piling up debt and not try to correct things. i think the speaker did the right thing, pushed for that, and we got it. as a result, we're going to have $2 trillion less in long-term debt thanks to what john mccain did. >> by the way, should there be a debt ceiling? is this sort of a ridiculous thing? >> i don't think it's ridiculous. i think it forces us to confront reality.